Curse

Sythion · May 02, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I don't like to whine, but its important to give balance feedback. This game is relatively new, but in my time playing pvp (which has only consisted of random teams), I'm finding more and more that every team revolves around one thing - Warrior/Monks.

Having played some pvp in the BWEs as a Warrior/Necro, I knew that warriors were going to be a major part of the game, and so I made a N/Me build to debuff them and support the team. (I'll list my build at the bottom, so you can tell me if you feel that was the problem). After debuffing warriors, I still get rocked by them, and can do almost nothing to defend myself unless I have a good healer for backup. And when I say I get rocked by them, I do not mean I'm trying to fight toe to toe with a support build, I mean if I don't run, I'm going to die very quickly. If I do run, I'm going to die very slowly.

Of course, other classes get targeted quickly as well. so the point is to simply support warrior/monks with damage, healing, buffs or debuffs until only warrior/monks are left. The team with the most warrior/monks left at this point wins after a long and drawn out fight.

While it's logical that the game will revolve around its tanks, I think PvP in guildwars takes it a little too far. And I believe this is because warrior/monks have too much survivability and damage. I've never seen anyone able to hurt a warrior/monk above what he can heal (although I believe mesmers may be able to, if built right).

I'd like to hear other players thoughts on this as well. Do you feel Warrior/Monks are over powered? Which aspect of them? The damage or the healing? If so, how can it be fixed? Do you feel there are any builds that can beat a cookie cutter warrior/monk 1v1?

As I promised, here's my build. It works great for weakening a group of fighters, but it cannot stand up to one in a fight. If you would do anything different with it, let me know.:

Inspiration: 12
Curses: 12
Soul Reaping: 3

Enfeebling Blood
Shadow of Fear
Faintheartedness
Feast of Corruption
Ether Feast
Ethereal Burden
Energy Tap
Res Signet

Typhoon · May 02, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

I believe War/Mo builds have little to none in ranged damage, so wouldn't they be the most kitable? Rangers and Ice elementalists have many powerful snare spells.

Manderlock · May 02, 2005, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I believe War/Mo builds have little to none in ranged damage, so wouldn't they be the most kitable? Rangers and Ice elementalists have many powerful snare spells.

Unless they have sprint, then your screwed.

VonGimli · May 02, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I do believe that warrior/monks are WAY to overpowered. I was using one myself for awhile, but it was just so cheap that I stopped and for the release I am using a warrior/mesmer (they are actually quite good at dealing damage and tanking at the same time). As a w/mo I ran into the enemy spell casters with shield of judgement and mending on. The entire enemy team focused no me and I still didnt die (8 player teams). I didnt even have anyone supporting me, I dont remember what happened to them :P It was so cheap it wasnt even funny. I think a good way of countering this would be spirit shackles though. What it does is every time they attack, the lose 5 energy. When a warrior only has 20 energy, then it is a pretty powerful skill. That combined with periodic Mind Wrack (next time enemy's energy is at 0, they take a bunch of damage and Mind Wrack ends) and shatter enchantment (takes away enchantments and deals damage) would most likely counter it. Mind wrack is optional though. And my guy is a warrior mesmer, so guess what my mesmer skills are going to be when I get to pvp? Thats right, Spirit Shackles and Shatter Enchantment

Corrusader · May 02, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Bring a few enchantment removal spells to take away the healing hands/ shielding hands/ whatever.

Bring also blinding flash/ward against melee/other miss conditions.

It's funny when they are just swinging their sword and not hitting. I almost wanted to ask them "are you having fun swining that sword?"

I do think W/Mo's are unbalanced because they require specific spells to counter. When they're not countered they are more powerful then other uncountered builds (W/El comes to mind.) The W/Mo's are so popular now I wanted to make a character specifically to counter them.

VonGimli · May 02, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Ya, when I get to PvP im going to create a PvP mesmer/something that will focus on countering warriors, specifically warrior monks.

May 02, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Oh god. For the like 1 millionth time, War/Mo are not overpowered. If they are overpowered then you really have to show a better way in which they are overpowered besides basing it on random PvP aka the Arena-where balance goes out the window.

edit: Also include PUG teams in Tombs where they are just playing with some of the most bizzare builds, or just teams of bad players stomping each other.

Sarus · May 02, 2005, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Oh god. For the like 1 millionth time, War/Mo are not overpowered.

Blackace ... please ... you're totally wro .... no wait you're totally right. War/Mo are not overpowered at all.

Quote:

Do you feel there are any builds that can beat a cookie cutter warrior/monk 1v1?

First of all the game was never meant to be balanced for 1v1 combat. This would be why there are no 1v1 arenas or dueling areas. You really need to consider an entire 8 person team when you think about balancing issues.

Quote:

As a w/mo I ran into the enemy spell casters with shield of judgement and mending on. The entire enemy team focused no me and I still didnt die (8 player teams). I didnt even have anyone supporting me, I dont remember what happened to them

If it's really true that an entire 8 man team was focusing on you and you still didn't die even when you had no support then congratulations ... you were playing against the worst PUG ever to grace tombs.

Quote:

I don't like to whine, but its important to give balance feedback.

People have been giving balance feedback for the past 6 months in the BWE and the alphas have been doing it for even longer so if you think something is really unbalanced then you're probably just thinking about it in the wrong way.

Quote:

Do you feel Warrior/Monks are over powered? Which aspect of them? The damage or the healing?

Neither ... and a good warrior monk build doesn't have healing (or at least very little). They are going to be decked out with skills that up their DPS. If they have healing it's a rezz spell.

Quote:

That combined with periodic Mind Wrack (next time enemy's energy is at 0, they take a bunch of damage and Mind Wrack ends) and shatter enchantment (takes away enchantments and deals damage) would most likely counter it.

Shatter enchantment isn't that great. It only removes one enchantment at at a time, has a long recycle and the damage can easily be countered with an orison.

If you want to kill warriors kill the monks first. Once the monks are dead warriors go down plenty fast. If the warrior is able to buff themselves up then just cast a rend on them and problem solved. If you want to slow warriors down use wards, shouts, and some of the necro curses (i.e., Shadow of Fear).

goldfinger · May 02, 2005, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I disagree with them being overpowered. I used a pure drain/curse necromancer and found myself putting down wa/mo's quite a bit in pvp only arenas. I found that draining their health and syphoning the health of those around me left their constant swings doing nothing more than make me laugh, not to mention the curse that drains energy as well as health. That will take care of them healing themselves and such. There has honestly been times where I could type "Do you notice your swings appear to be futile and I am taking NO damage" to warriors hurling themselves at me.

It is also a matter of target calling and the right team I believe.

Vermilion Okeanos · May 02, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

W/Mo in general... is not overpowered...

The ONLY thing that is unbalance is the "enchantment", which are the hardest thing to remove 2nd to ward... but unlike ward, there are alot of enchantments.

While with single enchantment remove, you can't exactly do much about the people with 2-3 enchantments on them... then there are the recharge.

You can say rend enchantment strip them clean, but look at the recharge... what happen if all 4 are W/Mo? There are not a single enchantment strip that I know can be toss around easily without some other things backing it.

tektonik · May 02, 2005, 07:34 AM // 07:34

BE held HoH for 4 and half hours we ran into warmo builds and had no problems at all...our selves have no war/mo's(i dont count I dont have heal spells). Jesus its all about teamwork and your lack of it.

and no I won't give tips because I enjoy farming sigils

Empirism · May 02, 2005, 07:48 AM // 07:48

in my opinion, war/mo's are very strong class but not so overpowered what comes to organized team battle, I think like water trident and such can be very annoying to war/mo's while some nasty debuffs are on.

"As a w/mo I ran into the enemy spell casters with shield of judgement and mending on. The entire enemy team focused no me and I still didnt die (8 player teams). "

well, you will never survive like that against organized team

Hado · May 02, 2005, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Wa/Mo's are fine.

It's the enchantment removal and counters to the defensive skills/power healing/enchant stacking that are broken.. the few skills that exist are completely underpowered.

Deagol · May 02, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Wa/Mo are the easiest class for new players. It takes an experienced or hard-core player to take them down, and there are very few of those this soon after release.

May 02, 2005, 08:55 AM // 08:55

It just takes basic teamwork and knowledge of the game. Even a simple mo/el can do well vs warriors.

necroth · May 02, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

In my opinion Wa/Mo take harder to kill but they do not have as much killing power as other combinations. I was in explorable areas together with some friends and although I could tank for a few monsters most of the killing was done by the other members (of course my low damage sword was not helping much at that time).

In Yak's Bend I had a lot of trouble tanking since there are a lot of foes using Shatter Enchantment and it really hurts the build. Although I could just re apply the enchantment but then I would run out of energy since a Wa/? does not have much energy or energy regeneration.

tektonik · May 02, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

please say Paladin necroth, my war/mo can kill faster than almost any war you put together.

goldfinger · May 02, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Oh god, I ran into a good instance of the Wa/mo falling due to a big head. We had one who buffed himself up and as soon as he got SOMEWHAT within range, our caller did his stuff and we made the shortest work of him I have ever seen. We didn't even have a stinkin warrior, but we had 2 monks (I could hardly be a monk tho, just had heal and kept hammering it off after my curses were in place)

HotSnack · May 02, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

While it's logical that the game will revolve around its tanks, I think PvP in guildwars takes it a little too far. And I believe this is because warrior/monks have too much survivability and damage. I've never seen anyone able to hurt a warrior/monk above what he can heal (although I believe mesmers may be able to, if built right).

The game does not revolve around tanks (at least not a form of tanking that you are thinking of), even fresh players who have only done one pve mission will understand that their priorities are healers>casters>"tankers".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

I'd like to hear other players thoughts on this as well. Do you feel Warrior/Monks are over powered? Which aspect of them? The damage or the healing? If so, how can it be fixed? Do you feel there are any builds that can beat a cookie cutter warrior/monk 1v1?

War/Monks are powerful, but not because of 'Paladin' builds (eek! not Mending + Server Artery!), instead they are powerful because they are perfect for carrying spells that dedicated healers can't afford to i.e. Restore Life, Life Bond, etc.

Argent · May 02, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

about tht one w/mo killing plan........

I use adrenaline mainly so tht wont work on me.